Discussion:
What to do with d-i on armel?
(too old to reply)
Bastian Blank
2024-01-07 22:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi

With Linux 6.6 we dropped the Marvell specific kernel image, as it
was not known to work on any of the available devices. We still have
another armel kernel left, the one of the Raspberry Pi 0 and 1, which
uses an ARMv6 CPU.

This also removed all the udebs from armel, which makes many d-i
components not longer have fullfiled dependencies and the release stuff
of course acting up.

Do we have any armel subarch that can be installed via d-i?

Bastian
--
Without freedom of choice there is no creativity.
-- Kirk, "The return of the Archons", stardate 3157.4
Emanuele Rocca
2024-01-09 19:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bastian,
Post by Bastian Blank
Do we have any armel subarch that can be installed via d-i?
Not as far as I know, perhaps Sledge has more info on this? Also, I don't think
we've seen anyone mentioning armel in ages on debian-boot, both in terms of
installation reports and in general asking questions. Correct me if I'm wrong
though. Any armel users out there? :-)
Martin
2024-01-09 22:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emanuele Rocca
though. Any armel users out there? :-)
My employer uses Debian on armel, but not d-i :-)
gene heskett
2024-01-10 00:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Emanuele Rocca
though. Any armel users out there? :-)
My employer uses Debian on armel, but not d-i :-)
.
3d printing environment relies heavily on whatever runs the rp2040. A
whole industry has grown up around the combo of the adxl345 and an
rp2040 to measure resonances and tune them out, allowing the printer to
run several times faster with what is called "input shaping" The actual
device is about the size of a postage stamp on a teeny pcb. I do not
know which version of linux it is that the rp2040 is actually running.
For us, its one of those things that Just Works.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Peter Green
2024-01-10 01:40:01 UTC
Permalink
3d printing environment relies heavily on whatever runs the rp2040. A whole industry has grown up around the combo of the adxl345 and an rp2040 to measure resonances and tune them out, allowing the printer to run several times faster with what is called "input shaping"  The actual device is about the size of a postage stamp on a teeny pcb. I do not know which version of linux it is that the rp2040 is actually running. For us, its one of those things that Just Works.
The rp2040 does not run linux.
Martin
2024-03-04 00:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Emanuele Rocca
though. Any armel users out there? :-)
My employer uses Debian on armel, but not d-i :-)
I should add: We never used d-i on armel and have our own kernel.
Most other stuff is plain Debian, though.
Gianluca Renzi
2024-03-04 06:10:01 UTC
Permalink
The same here. We never used the d-i but we are using Debian systems
(kernel and root file system) as daily bases of our line of products
embedded systems. Hundred of thousands of boards are using Debian since
Debian Lenny 5.0. From armel to armhf 32 bit systems.
So a drop of the armel and/or armhf will force us to a very complicated
rearrangement of our build systems.
Please don't do that if you can.

Best regards
Post by Martin
Post by Martin
Post by Emanuele Rocca
though. Any armel users out there? :-)
My employer uses Debian on armel, but not d-i :-)
I should add: We never used d-i on armel and have our own kernel.
Most other stuff is plain Debian, though.
Christoph Biedl
2024-03-03 19:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Emanuele Rocca wrote...
Post by Emanuele Rocca
Any armel users out there? :-)
Fairly late, but just to avoid the impression there aren't any left:
Yes, here.

But that's not an objection against plans in Debian kernel and/or d-i,
I'm using my own kernel, and should I ever have the need of a new
installation, I know how to debootstrap and the rest.

Besides, the hardware is a Seagate DockStar, so

Architecture: armv5tel
Byte Order: Little Endian
CPU(s): 1
On-line CPU(s) list: 0
Vendor ID: Marvell
Model name: Feroceon-88FR131

and 128 Mbytes of RAM. Running Debian stable already requires some hacks
to not end up in thrashing, I might do a presentation "Running Debian on
small systems" some day about it.

In summary, I'm glad Debian keeps supporting this device - but I'm
aware the good times are in the past and it will very likely become
e-waste before the hardware dies. If not Debian ends the support, the
Linux kernel will.

Christoph
Ástor Ayllón Lázaro
2024-03-03 21:00:01 UTC
Permalink
just another armel-debian user here, running in an old intel es4000 since
2006.
Post by Christoph Biedl
Emanuele Rocca wrote...
Post by Emanuele Rocca
Any armel users out there? :-)
Yes, here.
But that's not an objection against plans in Debian kernel and/or d-i,
I'm using my own kernel, and should I ever have the need of a new
installation, I know how to debootstrap and the rest.
Besides, the hardware is a Seagate DockStar, so
Architecture: armv5tel
Byte Order: Little Endian
CPU(s): 1
On-line CPU(s) list: 0
Vendor ID: Marvell
Model name: Feroceon-88FR131
and 128 Mbytes of RAM. Running Debian stable already requires some hacks
to not end up in thrashing, I might do a presentation "Running Debian on
small systems" some day about it.
In summary, I'm glad Debian keeps supporting this device - but I'm
aware the good times are in the past and it will very likely become
e-waste before the hardware dies. If not Debian ends the support, the
Linux kernel will.
Christoph
Frank Weißer
2024-03-04 07:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Also late:
I'm using it on a I/O-Mega IX2-200, using d-i as described here>
https://github.com/artizirk/ix2-200

To be honest: The upgrade to bookworm was made via apt.

readU
Frank
Post by Christoph Biedl
Emanuele Rocca wrote...
Post by Emanuele Rocca
Any armel users out there? :-)
Yes, here.
But that's not an objection against plans in Debian kernel and/or d-i,
I'm using my own kernel, and should I ever have the need of a new
installation, I know how to debootstrap and the rest.
Besides, the hardware is a Seagate DockStar, so
Architecture: armv5tel
Byte Order: Little Endian
CPU(s): 1
On-line CPU(s) list: 0
Vendor ID: Marvell
Model name: Feroceon-88FR131
and 128 Mbytes of RAM. Running Debian stable already requires some hacks
to not end up in thrashing, I might do a presentation "Running Debian on
small systems" some day about it.
In summary, I'm glad Debian keeps supporting this device - but I'm
aware the good times are in the past and it will very likely become
e-waste before the hardware dies. If not Debian ends the support, the
Linux kernel will.
Christoph
Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-10 08:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastian Blank
Hi
With Linux 6.6 we dropped the Marvell specific kernel image, as it
was not known to work on any of the available devices. We still have
another armel kernel left, the one of the Raspberry Pi 0 and 1, which
uses an ARMv6 CPU.
This also removed all the udebs from armel, which makes many d-i
components not longer have fullfiled dependencies and the release stuff
of course acting up.
Do we have any armel subarch that can be installed via d-i?
A few ideas from the kernel's point of view:

The most important ARMv5 platform is now probably at91, as
Microchip still releases new sam9 chips[1] and is going to
keep supporting it for a while.
I would guess that the latest ones are not even that far off
the performance of the kirkwood/mv78xx0 or bcm2835 parts,
but I don't have numbers.

Qemu versatilepb is probably the most accessible arm926
platform, though there are a couple of other armv5/v6 (ast2400,
ast2500, pxa27x, raspi1ap) in qemu that one should be able
to get to work as well if anyone found the time.

Since armel userland should work fine with any armhf or
arm64 kernel, it might still be useful to repackage
one or both of those for the armel archive and use this
to have an installation method for armel on modern
hardware. [Side note: I would also like to see an arm64
kernel image added to armhf, it's probably more useful
than the armmp-lpae kernel in terms of enabling users.]

At the moment, it is possible to enable support for
arm1176 (as in bcm2835) in a normal armhf kernel and
have that boot on armv6k, armv7 and armv8 hardware.
I actually want to change that in the kernel though:
Now that we dropped SMP support in armv6, as it now
makes more sense to have armv6k grouped with armv5
and instead have a generic kernel for armel that
works on bcm2835, versatilepb, at91, kirkwood and
all the others that one might use.

Arnd

[1] https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/sam9x75
Bastian Blank
2024-01-10 09:00:02 UTC
Permalink
[dropped some recipients, this mail is not about d-i and the problem at
hand]

Hi
Post by Arnd Bergmann
The most important ARMv5 platform is now probably at91, as
Microchip still releases new sam9 chips[1] and is going to
keep supporting it for a while.
If I interpret arch/arm/mach-at91/Kconfig correctly, then at91 is a
family with v4, v5 and v7 devices. The v7 ones should work with armhf,
so here we are only concerned about the v4 and v5 ones. For none of
them does Debian provide a kernel.
Post by Arnd Bergmann
Since armel userland should work fine with any armhf or
arm64 kernel, it might still be useful to repackage
one or both of those for the armel archive and use this
to have an installation method for armel on modern
hardware.
But why? What is provided by an armel userland that armhf can't?
Post by Arnd Bergmann
[Side note: I would also like to see an arm64
kernel image added to armhf, it's probably more useful
than the armmp-lpae kernel in terms of enabling users.]
Not gonna happen. "dpkg --add-architecture arm64" is the way to go.
Post by Arnd Bergmann
At the moment, it is possible to enable support for
arm1176 (as in bcm2835) in a normal armhf kernel and
have that boot on armv6k, armv7 and armv8 hardware.
Our armhf is armv7. Does armv6k fullfil the requirements as well?

The armv8 hardware can just use our arm64 kernel.
Post by Arnd Bergmann
Now that we dropped SMP support in armv6, as it now
makes more sense to have armv6k grouped with armv5
and instead have a generic kernel for armel that
works on bcm2835, versatilepb, at91, kirkwood and
all the others that one might use.
Send patches?

Bastian
--
Virtue is a relative term.
-- Spock, "Friday's Child", stardate 3499.1
Martin
2024-01-10 09:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastian Blank
But why? What is provided by an armel userland that armhf can't?
My employer runs Debian on this armv5(?) hardware:

https://www.taskit.de/produkte/embedded-produkte/computer-on-module/132/stamp9g20-512f/128r

Sure, the kernel is not the Debian one, but something around 4.19.

Cheers
Dimitri John Ledkov
2024-01-10 10:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Bastian Blank
But why? What is provided by an armel userland that armhf can't?
https://www.taskit.de/produkte/embedded-produkte/computer-on-module/132/stamp9g20-512f/128r
Sure, the kernel is not the Debian one, but something around 4.19.
Such deployment only needs Debian archive, without a need for a debian
kernel nor debian d-i build for said arch. A sort of partial / rootfs
chroot-only arch.
--
Dimitri

Sent from Ubuntu Pro
https://ubuntu.com/pro
Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-19 17:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnd Bergmann
Qemu versatilepb is probably the most accessible arm926
platform, though there are a couple of other armv5/v6 (ast2400,
ast2500, pxa27x, raspi1ap) in qemu that one should be able
to get to work as well if anyone found the time.
We used to have a configuration for Versatile, but it got broken
accidentally; when I found out I removed it because no-one had
complained in 9 months. (Maybe that was a bit quick!)
We do have a configuration for RPi 0/1, which is supported with images
at <https://raspi.debian.net/> rather than through d-i.
I don't think anyone has proposed configurations to support the other
platforms.
My guess is that the remaining armel users expect a bit of
manual work, and tend to have their own kernels. Setting up
qemu is rather tricky as well, so I would tend to assume I
made a mistake if I can't get the versatilepb kernel to work,
not a bug in the package.

I definitely put a lot of work into the kernel changes
myself that enabled us to have a multiplatform kernel
for all armv5 targets as of linux-6.1, and I think it's
a bit sad to see this not getting used in Debian at all.
Post by Arnd Bergmann
Since armel userland should work fine with any armhf or
arm64 kernel, it might still be useful to repackage
one or both of those for the armel archive and use this
to have an installation method for armel on modern
hardware. [Side note: I would also like to see an arm64
kernel image added to armhf, it's probably more useful
than the armmp-lpae kernel in terms of enabling users.]
We used to do this for amd64 kernels on i386. Then Debian implemented
multiarch and it became an unnecessary waste of build resources.
Still, we are lacking support for adding a "foreign" architecture and
kernel package at installation time.
mipsel (now discontinued) also does the same thing by
shipping only 64-bit kernels for loongson and octeon hardware,
plus a 32-bit kernel for the malta reference system.

The situation for mipsel and armhf is similar here, as
most modern SoCs really requires running a 64-bit kernel,
but you often don't have enough RAM to install the 64-bit
userland on small systems. On x86, this is usually not
an issue since all current 64-bit machines are still
able to boot a 32-bit installer and then get the 64-bit
kernel later.

Granted, this is much less important on armel today,
since there is really no reason to run armel userland
on armv7 or armv8 hardware other than for debugging.

It would be nice to have an easy way to run the armel
installer with an armhf kernel for setting up an armel
rootfs in qemu, but debvm probably fills this niche better
already. If armhf ever moves to requiring vfpv3-d32 and
neon, having an armel installer with an armv7 kernel
for the handful of non-neon machines would be helpful
though.
(This specific combination would also be hard to support in the current
linux packaging because arm64 and armhf have different kernel
architectures and toolchains, unlike amd64 and i386.)
Right, though changing the kernel package to support this
sounds easier than changing the installer to use a
foreign architecture kernel package.
Post by Arnd Bergmann
At the moment, it is possible to enable support for
arm1176 (as in bcm2835) in a normal armhf kernel and
have that boot on armv6k, armv7 and armv8 hardware.
Now that we dropped SMP support in armv6, as it now
makes more sense to have armv6k grouped with armv5
and instead have a generic kernel for armel that
works on bcm2835, versatilepb, at91, kirkwood and
all the others that one might use.
If someone wants to make this work in Debian that would be great, but
without a specific maintainer it's not going to happen.
Understood.

Arnd
Bastian Blank
2024-01-19 17:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnd Bergmann
Right, though changing the kernel package to support this
sounds easier than changing the installer to use a
foreign architecture kernel package.
Well. It is a "dpkg --add-architecture" in the right spot of
base-installer/debian/bootstrap-base.postinst.

Bastian
--
Yes, it is written. Good shall always destroy evil.
-- Sirah the Yang, "The Omega Glory", stardate unknown
Cyril Brulebois
2024-03-03 20:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastian Blank
With Linux 6.6 we dropped the Marvell specific kernel image, as it
was not known to work on any of the available devices. We still have
another armel kernel left, the one of the Raspberry Pi 0 and 1, which
uses an ARMv6 CPU.
This also removed all the udebs from armel, which makes many d-i
components not longer have fullfiled dependencies and the release stuff
of course acting up.
Do we have any armel subarch that can be installed via d-i?
Unless we get something to support in d-i, I'm wondering how to proceed
with dropping support for armel. Unsupported things tend to move to
ports while still being supported by porters, so we don't have much to
do there besides go with the flow. That'd be the first time (that I can
think of) that we have an FTBFS-ing d-i for an architecture that's in
unstable.

Maybe have it marked Not-For-Us on armel, also requesting the binary to
be dropped there? And maybe poke the ftp team to have installer-armel/
cleaned up? (The “disabling daily builds” part being trivial.)

I see no time pressure here, we have a big transition going on, so it
doesn't seem particularly fitting to try and get a d-i release out any
day soon.


Cheers,
--
Cyril Brulebois (***@debian.org) <https://debamax.com/>
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant
Paul Gevers
2024-03-09 07:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Cyril Brulebois
Maybe have it marked Not-For-Us on armel, also requesting the binary to
be dropped there? And maybe poke the ftp team to have installer-armel/
cleaned up?
Those actions sound appropriate to me, but I don't know the inner
details well enough to see if there are traps set out.

Paul

Gerardo Ballabio
2024-03-04 09:10:01 UTC
Permalink
The same here. We never used the d-i but we are using Debian systems (kernel and root file system) as daily bases of our line of products embedded systems. Hundred of thousands of boards are using Debian since Debian Lenny 5.0. From armel to armhf 32 bit systems.
So a drop of the armel and/or armhf will force us to a very complicated rearrangement of our build systems.
Please don't do that if you can.
Hi Gianluca,
if that is so important for your business, you might consider
sponsoring some work on this issue.
The Debian Long Term Support project
<https://www.freexian.com/lts/debian/> is about keeping "old stuff"
working so that might be the right place to ask.

Gerardo
Adrian Bunk
2024-03-04 11:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Ballabio
The same here. We never used the d-i but we are using Debian systems (kernel and root file system) as daily bases of our line of products embedded systems. Hundred of thousands of boards are using Debian since Debian Lenny 5.0. From armel to armhf 32 bit systems.
So a drop of the armel and/or armhf will force us to a very complicated rearrangement of our build systems.
Please don't do that if you can.
Hi Gianluca,
if that is so important for your business, you might consider
sponsoring some work on this issue.
The Debian Long Term Support project
<https://www.freexian.com/lts/debian/> is about keeping "old stuff"
working so that might be the right place to ask.
That's not the right place, LTS is about keeping *old Debian versions*
security supported for 2 additional years (and has dropped armel since stretch).

LTS is not doing anything at all regarding keeping older/unusual
hardware supported, such work has to be done directly in Debian
(and upstream).
Post by Gerardo Ballabio
Gerardo
cu
Adrian
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